This report is stunning. I was waiting for the FIA report to be published, quite eagerly. Look at this. The PDF file from FIA, available here.
In what is being viewed as the most damning section of the report, the FIA has published an email exchange between De la Rosa and Alonso.
“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable,” De la Rosa wrote to Alonso on 25 March in an exchange about the Ferrari’s weight distribution.
“It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic - I don’t know what post he holds now.
“He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi (Raikkonen) was stopping in lap 18. He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that.”
I fail to understand why the drivers(Or atleast Alonso) are not punished? And it was hilarious to read the BBC 606 where people were saying that Ron Dennis was known for his integrity. And this article went one step ahead.
Dennis, too, will feel the pain - personally as much as anything.
This is a man who has based his entire business career, his entire company, on an image of honesty and integrity, and to be besmirched like this will hurt him almost physically.
I consider McLaren lucky and I feel they have been let off with a lesser punishment. Forget the 100 million $ fine. They will recover that in no time. Not banning the drivers is silly.
A balanced, but good, article from Guardian.
on 14 Sep 2007 at 8:44 pm # Vishnu
yeah…initial reports said Mclaren was banned from the championship for 2007 and 2008. I was overjoyed.Kadasila,FIA ippadi en mudhugula kuthitaanga
reason for not banning the drivers: they were given immunity for turning over all the email and other evidence. damn the FIA!
on 14 Sep 2007 at 8:51 pm # Anand
If you look @ the stats of Mc between 2006 & 2007, it was no way possible for them to perform so well in 2007(out of 18*2 races, they retired 13 times or so) unless they did some major engineering work and that would have been released to the entire f1 world which never happened, so it was always fishy. As I said in my post, I say it again. Fire everyone from McLaren. Its unfair to just fine the team and not the drivers.
on 14 Sep 2007 at 9:21 pm # gp
…since Lewis did not do anything, then fire Alonso and leave Lewis alone? Will this be fair than? But reading the full report, it states that Lowe clarified that whatever that Alonso or De La Rosa knows, must be shared with engineers before being tested in the simulators, hence they did not share it and did not test it. So the information circulated between Stepney, Coughlan, Alonso and De La Rosa. Its extremely stupid to let Alonso continue racing.
By removing the whole team, only the Ferrari fans will be satisfied, you fail to think of what the other fans (who’s tax money built the circuits) and who indirectly falls into FIA’s ‘worldwide safety campaign’ regulations would feel. The 100 million will go a long way into the various development and charity bodies within FIA. But thankfully McLaren wont have to pay it all since FIA can simply take their prize money for the season.
Since im a Fan, I’ll attest that Ron Dennis is a man known for his integrity, and unless he comes out and say that he indeed got the secrets, he is innocent as anyone. You know whats cool about this? it will forever be an issue of Ferrari and FIA rather than McLaren also since you will never have a team confession. If that happens, then we will see what the future holds.
on 14 Sep 2007 at 9:24 pm # gp
left this out, it’s also extremely irresponsible to say that one dossier will help in all the races, since we all know fairly that the car and its settings change in every single race, even during the race. What was interesting to read is the choice of tyre gas. That could have been a great factor in races, and of course the ever famous weight distribution, well Stepney did not send any particular info on what happens when it rains or not doesn’t it? Did Bridgestone play any role in this also since any tyre gas choice will have to be tested out with the tyre manufacturer as mentioned in the statement.
on 14 Sep 2007 at 10:22 pm # anantha
Agree with GP. But again this is going to be another saga that will sharply divide F1 fans into the Tifosi and Tifosi-NOT. Now, compared to yesterday, I am much more sober considering that the report seems to be damning. But I have a couple of questions.
1. Were Stepney and Caughlin in the meeting? If not, why?
2. Why the fuck wasn’t Alonso in the meeting (that question is for both Ron Dennis and the WMSC) if his emails clinched the case.
3. The email evidence mentioned in the report sounds similar to the emails published by a Italian news paper that was later acknowledged as a fabrication of the journo who filed it. So I am confused.
4. The email evidence points to collusion of Alonso and Delarosa. And it appears that both of them turned in emails. And they have been let off, though it looks like they screwed up. So just the admission that they were guilty was used to give them immunity? I think there is more to this.
5. Like GP mentioned above, if Bridgestone was involved, were they questioned?
6. If McLaren had the info and used it, wouldn’t there be tangible evidence in terms of chassis parts etc.? I mean, if they destroyed physical parts that were used in races, would that disappearance not be noted? If you are fining someone $10 million, you could use a fraction of that money to investigate further before passing judgement.
Either way, it stinks. Like GP says, and I agree wholeheartedly, that this will forever be a Ferrari FIA issue rather than McLaren because FIA’s image among the Tifosi-NOT is that they are uncomfortably chummy, while McLaren and some other teams have forever been in loggerheads with the FIA (with that breakaway championship thing from a few years ago) and personally Dennis and Mosley dont see eye to eye either.
Prabhu, I dont care if people like you talk about “cheating” by McLaren (I have exchanged half a dozen emails with people this morning about this and many more yesterday), but what would irk me is that half a dozen “Johnny come latelies” that I know became a part of the Tifosi gang solely because of the rampant availability of cheap unlicensed merchandise in India are bound to snigger as well. That’s f**king sad!
on 14 Sep 2007 at 10:24 pm # anantha
By “people like you”, I meant people who follow Formula 1 regularly as opposed to people who wear red and yellow because everyone else wears them (I met more than a few people like that during the Indy race in ‘03). No offense, man!
on 15 Sep 2007 at 12:09 am # gp
Anandha, nice to know you are a neutral in this too ( i am leaned towards Mclaren but thats history today).
Ill try to answer ur questions abit, maybe prabhu will do justice to it:
1. Were Stepney and Caughlin in the meeting? If not, why?
Stepney was not there, Coughlan was there I think…FIA is a court of the sports, but the courts of Italy and Britain will do more damage to both this fuckers.
2. Why the fuck wasn’t Alonso in the meeting (that question is for both Ron Dennis and the WMSC) if his emails clinched the case.
Alonso is the guilty party, he is the bastard who fucked this team even though they gave him the chance to get a 3rd trophy knowing very well that Renault is fucked up this season.
3. The email evidence mentioned in the report sounds similar to the emails published by a Italian news paper that was later acknowledged as a fabrication of the journo who filed it. So I am confused.
Me too, maybe Max Mosley would have the answers or Maybe Jean Todt.
4. The email evidence points to collusion of Alonso and Delarosa. And it appears that both of them turned in emails. And they have been let off, though it looks like they screwed up. So just the admission that they were guilty was used to give them immunity? I think there is more to this.
Definetly both should thrown out without doubt. But then they dont want the motor association of Spain + the major sponsors from there to be pissed and cut Max’s purse, so the same with Lewis. God bless the world.
5. Like GP mentioned above, if Bridgestone was involved, were they questioned?
I read somewhere the reps are there, but if this is a real court, both FIA and Ferrari would have been fucked out long before.
6. If McLaren had the info and used it, wouldn’t there be tangible evidence in terms of chassis parts etc.? I mean, if they destroyed physical parts that were used in races, would that disappearance not be noted? If you are fining someone $10 million, you could use a fraction of that money to investigate further before passing judgement.
–> This is the major problem, read the conclusion statement: 8.12 The evidence leads the WMSC to conclude that some degree of sporting advantage was obtained, though it may forever be impossible to quantify that advantage in concrete terms. —> the point is they would never be able to get the truth out, no matter what FIA or Ferrari said, they cant point to a prima facie conclusion. Because there is NO PROOF. All the have is emails and people who said they got it, but they cant prove it being used. If you are able to read this excellent interview with Paul Stodart u can definetely see how Max, FIA and Ferrari colluded in fucking everyone this season: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32733
—> Massa knew way before the press confrence that Alonso will be demoted 5 places in Hungary? WTF man? How?
Agree with you about the fan, I been seing this shit ever since 1990, cried when Senna died, jumped with joy when Mika hoisted the cup, but whats more paining is that we have half baked bastards out there who think they know everything. FIA rapes its own children and we have Tifosi’s saying thats good? There wont be neutrality if we have people talking from the cock.
All said, its not fair if we want to gang up againts Prabhu, he is just another fan like us. If he was a Mclaren fan, he would have said what we said. But I wished, since he reads all the articles, he could have been more symphatetic towards McLaren and the sport as well.
Cheers bro’s, fans and non-fans alike. No matter what people say, we will be talking about this for years. And I just found out how to make 100 million in a day. That was something. I hope when Todt is kicked out and Ross Brawn is back in Ferrari next year, things will be different.
on 15 Sep 2007 at 9:17 pm # anantha
No. I am not ganging up against any one. Really. I am just frustrated that people call Mclaren “cheaters” without reading between the lines, which is what everyone ought to do when the FIA/Max Moseley and Bernie Ecclestone pass judgment on any issue, whether or not Ferrari is one of the aggrieved.
When I have pointed this out, all I hear is - Whatever, man. McLaren cheated.
I mean, WTF?
on 15 Sep 2007 at 9:51 pm # F e r r a r i
anantha and GP,
Relax. I still do not understand why Alonso was let off. And do you guys agree that atleast 3 employees of McLaren namely Coughlan, Alonso and De la rosa are at fault? Is it for the first time that employers are punished, when employees are at fault?
GP,
What do you mean by sympathy for McLaren? Tell me one good reason why I should feel sympathetic? And I am surprised that you didnt say that Ferrari is the reason for the rift between Alonso and Hamilton. And Hamilton deliberately disobeying teams instructions, Alonso blocking his team mate during qualifying was also Ferrari’s fault right? Sorry dude. I dont hate McLaren. I like Ferrari, and I feel a good McLaren car makes the Ferrari wins all the more sweet. But at same time if something goes wrong in F1, you want to blame Ferrari. So when you are having such strong hatred for the most successful team in F1, its tough. I dont think supporting McLaren, without hating Ferrari is that tough. Try it. Life will be good, and you don’t need to hunt for conspiracy theories like what you posted about Massa
I agree on certain points though. FIA administration stinks, and many people comment for the heck of it. I would suggest anyone to read the 14 page report before jumping to conclusions.
on 17 Sep 2007 at 12:25 am # gp
Prabhu,
No I did not ask you for sympathy to support the team, i asked sympathy in the CASE against the team.
The 3 person did massive damage, i believe in any race and case and team, all 3 are guilty. dead guilty. I dont know why the hell Alonso is still racing, I’d say dump him and take any of the test racers from other teams to finish the season, they are not even fighting for the constructors anymore, and dumping Alonso will teach him a good lesson. We will see if ends up in any other team than Renault next season.
But you must agree, the FIA (and I read the full report), could not at any one point, point to the car to find any of Ferrari’s technology in it. That is a dead set point. Its in their conclusion argument. Why write a 14 page sentence, when in conclusion you just break down the whole case? Well have to agree with you about FIA. I dont know even a management change would do any good, the better will be for each motor sport to have its own body.
Yes, maybe but not hating Ferrari the spirit of a fan would be fullfilled, I dont hate Ferrari, I hate how a team principle like Jean Todt can blow up the case because all this while, the information exchange between the teams have been handled internally. Everyone knows information runs around the team, but when Ferrari could not win and they know their season is not going well, they will resort to all sort of out of track tactics. IF say, McLaren used the secrets but still cant get a good car, will Ferrari still be shouting? Judging from the past seasons, they wont. But its good that Ferrari had a good car and their racers win, if not I bet Todt would go around and say that because McLaren were suspected of having the secrets, Ferrari could not win. The fans are saying so. Certainly an unreliable Ferrari this season had cost either Raikonnen or Massa to loose it big time in certain races.
I would love to see young drivers come up big, but if teams, no, team Ferrari loves to push and nudge FIA to vilify a single team, while all the other teams just sit put and shut up, then the sports wont last long. Certainly not with 100 million becoming cheap talk. Whats the purpose in reducing the cost of the teams if fines like that is dished out. All I’m saying is that, the FIA argument wont last in court, there is no prima facie evidence that it is used to the benefit of the McLaren car. They had the information, somehow Ron’s management style absolutely eluded him from hearing about the information, but until you can prove explicitly that the information is used, which in this case was never proved, then this is not a sentence at all, and no its not a conspiracy hunt, but its a no proof. If the whole matter is brought to a conclusion by saying: because there is information exchange in the form of Stepney contacting Coughlan before every race to handle pit information and taking into consideration exclusively Alonso and De La Rosa’s emails, then the 4 of them are the ONLY culprit because still McLaren cant be proven to have had the advantage that Ferrari is accusing. In this case, considering FIA’s sentence now, McLaren should just be stripped points for every race that Stepney contacted them. These are the only evidence that matters, because the 780 page dossier’s effect on the McLaren car will never be proven, and as you already know, next years car with all the NEW regulations that will be introduced will never be the same with this years car. Except maybe the stickers and paint.
And I wonder, when McLaren allowed FIA to inspect every aspect of the 2007 car, and they cant prove conclusively, then why bother with checking the 2008 car? What will they use now? Will they name the gas for the Ferrari tyres in the sentence? OF course they cant, because other teams might use it! Why dont you ask that Prabhu, name each of the technical aspects of the secret in detail, because a court of law will definitely do so. And I hope McLaren without being afraid of FIA takes this issue to court. Its like feeling for all their Formula One god like ability, the fans are the only ones who can point out the flaws in FIA’s argument. bah!
On a personal matter, I know you are a fair play guy, sorry if i still use profanity or being harsh in arguments, still remember our Chelsea arguments, but being someone breathing and living this two sports, I simply cant stay silent. Even more when you are the only Indian blogger who talks about this issues in detail, and since I know that hundreds if not thousands of Indian readers out there will read your post on F1 to gain understanding. Not to stereotype, but you are an important blogger. And I would never be able to post a fair post on this F1 matter, certainly never will from now on. On liking Ferrari, I will wait for Jean Todt to go away, languish in his island love nest in Malaysia before I started liking them, like when I still did until Mika left and they became a one horse race.
All said, thank got tomorrow is back to work, if not the head will explode.
Anantha,
This will be a never ending story, and we are not the only people feeling the unfairness in this. This is blatant stupidity. For once now I really feel the whole team should have had the chance to submit this case to court or just pull out of this years competition. What can FIA do then? For a team who brings the best returns to sponsors and also having legions of fan who feels good without feeling guilty, McLaren certainly does not deserve this. We suffered a lot of humiliation since Mika left, but calling us a cheat is definitely wrong. Time will tell who are and have been the real cheaters if they decide to bring out their bedroom matters and advertise where the bodies are burried.
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